Babangida: I Have Started Visualising a Good Nigerian Leader…I Have Seen 1 or 2 or 3 Already in Their 60s

The name General Ibrahim Badamasi Babangida evokes a lot of emotions, some positive and others negative but love him or hate him, he is intellectually sagacious, militarily tactical and socially amiable hence the sobriquets, Maradona and evil genius which he credits the media with dressing him in the togas. He is turning 80 soon and fielded questions from our sister Station, Arise News Network where he addressed myriad of issues ranging from leadership, insecurity, anticorruption and explained why the June 12 election was annulled…Excerpts

First of all, it will be spot on to congratulate you on your 80 years, how does it feel turning 80?

I feel good but I continue to be very grateful to God for allowing us to see this day, I think I am grateful to God.

Looking back 80years, your childhood, growing up, joining the military, being involved in the Nigerian civil war, being involved at every level of governance in Nigeria in the last 50years or more, what are the things that stand out for you looking back?

Now I think one thing, if I look back, I keep on saying I wished my parents were alive to see certain level of my development. I lost them when I was in my formative years. By the time I was 14, I lost both parents and everyday it comes to me that I wished one of them or both of them were alive when I became a military officer.

Did losing them at 14 affect you in anyway?

I used to hear them talking , they were always wishing me well; they were confident that I will one day grow up to be somebody within the society and as God will have it, they didn’t get to see me grow up within the community. Of course I turned out to be more than their expectations.

You can’t talk about the history of Nigeria without talking about the role you have played, from way back in 1966 when the first coup happened and then you had to intervene at some level; in 1976 you foiled the coup against the late Murtala Muhammed and all those iconic periods, tell us that fight you had to fight to keep Nigeria one and the fact that today, Nigeria is still struggling with the issue of unity?

Well, I think that at that time, the first problem started in 1966, Nigeria was six years old as an independent country. We were just struggling; we were trying to be a nation. We haven’t fully become a nation, just a group of people in a geographical environment called Nigeria; I didn’t believe we built a nation and that is the major problem.

That was why there was instability within the country; this culminated into a civil war and all developing countries had to go through that process. I was quite aware of this and convinced that this is only developing country especially in Africa. We had to go through this, Africa, Latin America and so on so we were not an exception.

So you think the civil war was not inevitable?

If you watch, before the civil war, we had a lot of problems, we had instability in the system, we had Tiv riots, operation wettie, we had a lot of stability operations in the country that culminated into the civil war. So, it didn’t come to us as a surprise.

Let’s talk about your role in the military and the role of the military in governance over the years until 1999. A lot of people argue that the incursion of the military into governance set Nigeria back decades if not centuries, what’s your thought on that, do you think the military coming in to power was a setback to Nigeria?

Well, I saw the military’s intervention as part of developing process in a developing country like Nigeria. I can take you back to the whole continent of Africa, sometime in 1952 military started intervening in governance in Africa. 1952 was Egypt and then from Egypt it started going through to other countries and it was a vogue then to stage a coup in a lot of these countries and we couldn’t be an exception, we had officers who were trained, highly educated and following the events that were happening in other countries; so it is not unusual to develop these people that had this type of mentality. I think we came in at a time these things were happening throughout the world and they were acceptable.

Fundamentally, Nigeria is still struggling to be a nation, what do you think is wrong at the base that the Fulani man doesn’t seem to have a sense of belonging, the Igbo man doesn’t, the Yoruba man doesn’t, everybody is thinking about their own part of the country, what do you think is responsible for that?

On the contrary I think again if you look back, if you take a place like Bagga up in the north east, the Igbo man, the Yoruba man travels up to Bagga for trading, he lived very comfortable, he lived very well with the people around there, they do their normal trading and so on. Even politically, in Enugu, in the 50s you had an Hausa man who was a mayor. If you go to Lagos the same thing, you have Yorubas, Igbos who are holding political appointments at local levels and live very well with the people. I think we the elites we did not succeed in imbibing that culture for the country so we rather lived with the culture that Europeans handed over to us, distinct Northern Nigeria, Eastern Nigeria, Western Nigeria until the first time when we had Midwestern but we did not mould ourselves as a nation; so I feel very strongly that was what happened, the political elites then that were being developed they ran back to their cocoons and accept o yes, I have to be an Igbo man to be this or that and till today unfortunately, the political class are not going into this very seriously and say how do we build a nation.

So how do we build a nation?

We have to rewrite the narrative

How?

Okay, You are now arguing among yourselves on how to build political parties; we knew it was doable because we did it, we had political parties that were being led by people from other parts of the country and they blended very well, they talked to people, they had the same common vision about this country, what they want the country to be and I give you an example, I believe in free market economy so anybody who will come to talk and not talk about free market economy I wouldn’t talk with him because we don’t have core values in this country, these are core values beyond which no one is going to allow you to do anything and the politicians, the elites all, I think we have to blend in this country.

Would you say then that the tyranny of the elites is what has contributed to the security situation for example that Nigeria finds itself now; banditry, kidnapping in north east, north west and secessionist sentiments in the South East and even South West, banditry, kidnapping all across the country, what do you think is the fundamental problem and what is the way out of the vicious cycle of insecurity?

I think the problem is leadership. There is disconnect between the leadership and the followership. If there is no disconnect, when people connect with each other at the various leadership levels and talk about the community, state and federation then we will not have problems whatsoever but we don’t have core values in the country that everybody depends and defends all the time. You defend that core value and this is what you believe in, anything short of that are not going to be acceptable. I give you an example, when we were in the military we talked about settled issues about Nigeria. The unity of Nigeria as far as we were concerned was a settled issue, presidentialism was a settled issue, free market economy was a settled issue, not socialism, the federation was a settled issue, nobody will come and say that Nigeria is no longer a federation.

When you say settled issue are you saying in another way that it is not negotiable because seem to be the refrain?

Yea

But some argue that it should be negotiable. That we should sit down at a table to decide whether we want to be one and if we want to go our separate ways, why not?

No. We decided to be one how many years ago, about 50, 51 years ago and we have been in that position for the last 51 years, why should we keep on repeating let’s sit down. You can have not less than five or 100 conferences in this country that Nigerians themselves sat down and talked about how to remain one , how to work with the federating units in this country, how to operate locally and so on. I think there are issues we should not be talking about now.

What should we be talking about?

We should be talking about how to encourage, how to strengthen what we have agreed; if we agree we are going to be united Nigeria since 51 years ago, we should now be talking on how to strengthen that unity. If we are going to have a federating unit, we are going to be talking about how we want to see our federation; if we want to talk about the local governments on how they should have free fund , whether they should govern themselves, we should be talking about how that should be achieved.

So what is the way out?

The way out, when I told you leadership, the leaders should understand Nigeria and Nigerians so anybody who wants a position of leadership, you must be a person who will be able to use your intellect to benefit Nigerians. There are things you believe whether in Niger or wherever and I want to lead a state, fine, this is an agrarian state, my thought will be how to take advantage of that God-given situation to better the wellbeing of the people.

Do you think it is just the lack of understanding of Nigerians that is missing or just outright lack of love and care in Nigeria, what is actually missing?

From my experience, Nigerians are very resilient people, very fertile minded people so if you want to lead them you have to take a lot of things into consideration. They are very good, very resilient, very industrious so how do I put all these together to get a common objective?

So is that where restructuring for example comes in? Some people have blamed you as part of the problem in terms of the structure of the country presently; you created 11 states during your time as military president which some say further alienated the leadership from the people and you are quoted as saying that the time to restructure Nigeria is now, if we say restructuring is the way to go what manner of restructuring are we talking about, is it regionalism or what?

No. It is amazingly interesting if you check from my findings, restructuring means different things to different people in this country. We don’t have a common interpretation, that’s a basic common problem that we are going to have. What does it mean? We have not defined it. The way I see it is what we started. Give the people from the lowest to the highest level opportunity to determine how they are governed or in governance. I will tell you a story, we had Reverend Adasu, may he rest in Peace, I had an argument with him, he was a governor in Benue, one of the local governments was NRC and he was SDP and he decided he was going to cut his funding for the local government. The information got to me and I called him, he is a very good friend of mine and I said Reverend come let’s talk. We sat down and I said why did you cut funding to the local government? He said no because he was not in the same party.

I said look, this man went round the local government he campaigned and told people vote for me I will provide for you. People accepted and based on that, it was on that basis they voted for him even if he is responsible, you promised them A, B, C D and it was on that basis they voted for you so why not give him his money and hold him responsible, you promised them ABCD what have you achieved? Because you are on top and they are your people; you should be their governor notwithstanding you have different political belief. He looked at me and said I should be a politician I said no I rather be a Reverend but this is the argument I argue with a lot of my friends. I believe for example in resource control but mention it to a lot of people somebody will cut your head.

Why won’t they have resource control, what is responsible for that?

This belief that this is our own God-given thing in our own environment; I want my people to benefit from it, this is our own area, this possession thing.

Let me explore the issue of local government you just talked about, the current President Muhammadu Buhari signed Executive Order 10, the governors frowned at it. I remember during your time you increased allocation from 10 to 20 per cent what are your thoughts on that, don’t you think the governors should take a lot of responsibilit from the way local government situation is now?

This is where your restructuring comes in. At the state level I want to see a situation where the governor is there, the constitution describes his area of responsibility, it defines his powers; anything that has to do with administration at the local government level the state governor does not have to but if it comes to something bigger like during some disasters the state can come in to help the local government that’s what I am saying. The laws are there. I saw somebody talking about the concurrent and exclusive lists that is something along that line I am not a lawyer, I have no idea but I think it should give people more within their capability, give them more control over their affairs over their resources.

Would you connect the structure of the polity to the dismal state the Nigerian economy actually finds itself? Under you, you introduced SAP which objective was diversification of the economy away from dependency on oil to bring about inclusiveness, bring in more people and libralise the economy, Nigeria is still grappling with the economy, struggling to keep the dollar stable which was one of the things you wanted to do with SAP, stabilise forex, we are still where we were during your government, What do you think is responsible for that and how can Nigeria fix the economy beyond what some will describe as panic mode?

That’s the right word, I think panic mode. I think it is the consistency in the policy and say yes this is the right thing to do and keep it going and not to be swayed by other people’s opinion. If you believe in the right thing, pursue it but keep on explaining it to the people also, we insist in this because of this, maybe one day they will get fed up and say go ahead and do it or become even more informed.

What do you make of this administration’s handling of the economy so far?

For the fact that it hasn’t collapsed, so I think they are trying to keep it moving?

What are the indices that make you think they are doing or should be done to actually move the economy forward?

I think it is to mobilise the people towards achieving this common objective. You should prove to them they can do it, the resources are there and you are there to provide the leadership and to support them.

Are you concerned that the Naira side by side the dollar is about 550 presently, what do you have to say to that?

It says a lot but I think we can address it… production. Once people can produce a lot of things they can easily sell either export or within the country I think it will stabilise.

How can that production come about and you have unemployment at about 33 per cent, you have a huge youth population, almost 70 per cent of the population are youths and yet Nigeria Is the poverty capital of the world?

There is too much control in the way the economy is being run, we should open it further, if we do that and tap into the God-given talent that we have I think we will go far.

Let’s go back to insecurity, what would be your recommendation in terms of the need to train the military, is the military overwhelmed and some people will argue (cuts in)

Not overwhelmed but maybe overstretched. The military I believe has the wherewithal to fight this banditry and bring the system back but I think the problem is that they are doing too much, they are overstretched and subsequently because of the space they have to occupy they have fairly obsolete equipment but one of the most important thing which they don’t have to lose sight of the military must believe in what they are fighting for, they must be provided with the wherewithal to meet up with that objective of the country and then it must be well trained and well led.

Do you think leadership is what is missing at that level?

I think they should do more from my experience, they should do more

I’m not too sure much has been said in the role you played in midwifing the fourth republic. I recall in 1999 before democracy you were in the forefront of getting President Olusegun Obasanjo to take over the helm of affairs, why was that necessary at the time and would you say you are impressed with the democratic trajectory that Nigeria has found itself?

If there is one Nigerian who passionately believes in Nigeria it is Olusegun Obasanjo, I give that to him. He believes very strongly in this country so it is easy for us to conclude that the person who takes over must have the core belief, belief in the oneness and stability for the future development of the country so that is one reason we sold him to Nigerians. Then he has the experience, he has seen it all, took part in the war of keeping the country one, led the country in political engineering and development

But some will say that it is an attempt to assuage certain sections of the country because of the events of the immediate past and the way of class of 63 to which you belong to continue to have a hold or grip on Nigeria?

No. I think what was happening is that we always believed that the person who must run the country must have the following antecedents; if he doesn’t believe in Nigeria, we wouldn’t look for him at all because we wanted a Nigerian and this is what we continue saying, even if we have a democratically elected Nigerian or the militarily imposed, he must have that core belief, belief in the country and experiences over the years in leadership, public service and the rest of them.

Are you impressed with our democracy so far, is it delivering and I also want to know the role you are playing in the PDP. The PDP held on to power for 16 years and you are one of the founding fathers and many are saying with this administration Nigeria seem to be moving towards one-party state

I know that Nigerians will not allow that to happen, they will make so much noise that whoever attempts to do that will not do it, this is the good thing about this country, they will talk they will demonstrate they will engage you in all sorts of things so as not to do the wrong thing.

Are you still in partisan politics, are you still involved in PDP as an opposition party?

No

Why sir?

I am an elder statesman now

Let’s talk about 2023, so much has been said about giving a sense of belonging to every part of the country including the South East. Many are saying come 2023 because of the perception that the South East has not had a fair share of being at the helm of affairs, what are your thoughts on power shifting to the South East or the need for it to shift to the South East?

Well, we have to make a choice either we have to practice democracy the way it has to be practiced or the way it is being practiced or we define democracy with our own whims and caprices. If we are going to do it the way it is done all over the world you allow the process to continue because it is through the process that you will be able to come out with a candidate that will lead the country, his qualifications, beliefs should be known to Nigerians before somebody ever throws his hat into the ring regardless of where he comes from.

Are you saying that Nigeria now should jettison the idea of zoning or power shift?

Whether we do it now or we will have to do it. Time will come when someone will emerge in this country whether he is from Okpella or from Minna the thing is he is known, everybody knows him and everybody thinks we should accept what his beliefs are and then if he throws his hat into the ring and people will say yes I heard that name before, why not. I have started visualising a good Nigerian leader

Who is that?

A person who travels in this country and had a friend virtually everywhere he travels and he knows at least one person he can communicate with, a person who is very vast in economy because of the development and then a good politician who should be able to talk to Nigerians and so on. I have seen one or two or three already in their 60s

You think that person should emerge in 2023?

I believe so if we could get him

So what do you think about these irredentist sentiments coming not only from the South East but also from the South West? The general situation with Nnamdi Kanu and Sunday Igboho who have been championing the course of their people, what’s your thought s about that?

Well my thoughts are it is always good to agitate but because there is this belief that this country should be one, when they make the noise they will find out that it won’t get support because Nigerians don’t generally believe on anything that will disturb their peace of mind

The DSS has been in the eye of the storm and you created so many institutions, DSS, NDE and so many and the Intelligence agencies like the NIA, DSS of course were supposed to help address the problems of insecurity and all that. The DSS has evolved from that and seem to have a mind of its own not to obey court orders , what do you make of today security service?

Well I think they are fairly well trained and as far as flouting court orders are concerned, I don’t think it is the right thing for them to do. They should obey court orders, that’s why we ought to have strong institutions but institutions that obey the due process, I don’t share their flouting of court orders at all

Speaking of strong institutions the EFCC is one of the strong institutions that was set up to tackle corruption and they are having question marks on the issue of fighting corruption to standstill, how do you feel when you hear from certain quarter that under your administration corruption actually thrived; is that a fair assessment?

Well you can’t compare it with the fact on the ground now. From what I read, from analysis, I think we are saints when compared to what is happening under a democratic dispensation. I sacked a governor for misappropriating less than N313,000, today billions are there in the streets, those who have stolen billion and are in courts and are now parading themselves in the streets so who is better in fighting corruption?

What is your assessment of this administration’s war on corruption because one of the three major planks upon which it came to power was anticorruption?

That is where politics comes. Somebody will come now and say APC made promises on three planks, Nigerians voted on three planks, economy, corruption and security so it is for Nigerians to decide how these have been met.

As a Nigerian what would you say?

I would rather wait and see what the other party how they react, if they convince me that they didn’t succeed in this and they show me proofs, I will go for them

What is your relationship like with President Muhamadu Buhari considering the fact that you were involved a coup that ousted him from power?

Our relationship is still very good and I am happy we relate good but the seeming bad relationship was the creation of your people the media

Let’s talk about the media during your time there was this seeming no love lost relationship between the media and your administration and we seem to find ourselves in the same situation. You abrogated Decree 2 and Decree 4 fair enough but today the media is contending with another decree 2 and 4 in another guise, the Press Council bill that has just been thrown out but there is an attempt to stifle the media in the eye of the media. What is it that makes government fear the media?

I didn’t fear the media, I libralised you, don’t forget. Today you have private televisions, private newspapers and so on so I have no fear with the media I believe they are an essential part of the society and they should play the role for the society so I have no fear of the media whatsoever

What do you make of the seeming attempt to clamp down on the media by this administration?

The media and the public will not allow that to happen and it is even silly to start trying clipping them. I said Nigerians are very wonderful people , you cannot intimidate them

Let’s talk about you; you turned 80. You got married in 1969 and barely five months you went back to the war front, what made you do that and why Mariam Babangida then Mariam Okogwu was your choice?

Okay. The story was this , in 1969 I was wounded in Uzuakoli, in Abia so I was lucky I was flown to Lagos same day which was unusual but God is kind and General Gowon got married around that period, April-May and here was my Commander in Chief and I was very impressed the way the marriage was going. The first thing that struck me was when I was on hospital bed, I said why the hell, I could have been dead so I wouldn’t be a married man just like my commander so I made up my mind I will get married immediately I get out of this hospital bed and God was kind I got well so getting married became my first priority, that’s it

And you met her?

I knew her before I got wounded. I was very frequent to their house and her brothers, cousins and whole family was with me so when I asked there was no opposition whatsoever. Few months later we got married.

When you were President she came up with Better Life for Rural Women and that seem to have marked some kind of entry-point in women involvement in governance, tell us more about that?

I think what went for her was that she worked with some of the best brains, women in this country and they were really committed to uplifting the status of women in the country some of them in the university, some in public service, they were always working, what do we do, how do we do it and that was the secret behind the success

Unfortunately you lost her in 2009, not just you but Nigeria a regal woman. How has it been since them, you didn’t even remarry why?

The women don’t like my face ..laughs. Meanwhile I think it is not easy, that is the way I am

And you have four children together?

Yea, very nice kids

A lot of people have described you as a great builder of men and women what exactly is the motive, was it to earn their loyalty because the Hiltop is some Mecca of sorts. Anybody who wants to become President sees it as a duty to visit you or consult you, whatever they want to be they think they need to consult you, what exactly is it about you that attracts people from everywhere?

I feel comfortable wherever I am, whether in Minna or in Lagos and I quickly make friend and I don’t disown people, even those I don’t know very well, I don’t disown them, I stick with them, I think that is the main reason.

How do you like to be remembered, what do you think is your legacy and before we round off, do you have any regrets whether the role you played when you were President; have you had closure on some of the things that seem to be a dark shadow over some great achievements that you scored , what are those?

Regrets?

Yes, what are those?

Now having left office for the last 28 years I don’t think that come to think of it I think we were right here. A lot of things are happening and those things convince me that after all we didn’t do badly maybe those things we were not understood, for example you mentioned SAP, I told Nigerians in 1986 when we were introducing SAP that people who take advantage of what we were trying to do will succeed in life but those who can’t will go under. I said that in 1986 and today I was proved right; people took advantage of what we did and today they are the powers of industry, economic gurus and they were provided an environment to say what you want, when you want and how you want it and you don’t get shot or locked up in prison so I think I made a contribution in society in order to make the society better

June 12 has been declared a Public Holiday in honour of MKO Abiola but it hasn’t been given closure so Nigerians still want to know what happened, they talk about a cabal that figuratively had a gun to your head to annul June 12, that you also were a victim of June 12?

You want me to be honest with you? If it materialised there would have been a coup detat which would have been violent, that’s all I can confirm. It didn’t happen thanks to the engineering. The Maradonic way we handled you guys in the society but that could have given room for more instability in the country.

Was the tension within the military or outside because…

Both. The military they can do it because they have the weapons to do it but the other society members will agitate

Are you still the evil genius, did you call yourself that?

No I never did , the media did

People call you Maradona, what’s that all about?

That’s a very good thing about Nigerians media and people. You have to anticipate them and if you anticipate them you live very well with them. I marvel at that contradiction, you can’t be evil and a genius so you have to make up what you think is evil genius.

Maradona I got it again from the definition of the media, they said deft political moves, that’s what the media described it.